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November 11, 2009 Nov. P. C. Meeting
Town of Germantown Planning Commission Nov. 11, 2009 Meeting called to order at 5:30 p.m. Roll call Present: Chairman Dave Specht, Margaret Miller, Roger Bean, Michael Poe, Jim Collis Absent: Audrey Scholl and Paul Merk, Zoning Administrator William Bruce and Town Attorney William Curran Guests: Pat Pavloski, Brad Pavloski, Chris Renner, Matt Morrow Quorum is present. Mrs. Uphoff reported that the meeting was properly posted at four locations. Minutes were read. Motion to approve the minutes for October15, 2009 was made by Roger Bean. Second Margaret Miller. Motion carried. Michael Poe commented that he appreciated Mr. Bruce sending the minutes before the meeting so there was time to go over. Approve the agenda. Chairman Specht felt the agenda order is fine for tonight. New Business: William Bruce introduced the General Development Plan and Specific Implementation Plan for the 3rd Addition to Copper Point. Information was in the packet and the letter sent laid out the request. Discuss revisions – 59 lots- reduce waterfront lots by 8. Previous 138 lots south of G now 122. Reduce density. 51 lots west of 15th Ave proposed 48 lots. Lot 14 will be combined with 15. Density moved to Castaway Lake. Lots 79 and 80 will be converted to greenspace Outlots. Density moved to Castaway Lake. Revisions to the recorded conditions creating PUD # 12 Copper Point and to approve the Specific Implementation Plan for Copper Point, PUD #12. Green space changed from 55.4 acres to 53.77 acres or from 16% to 15 %. Overall open space remains the same- 119 acres or 34%. Lots have minimum average width of 100’ or more as measured between mid-points of the side lot lines. Side yard set backs to 15’ Copper Point PUD#12 is less dense as adjacent subdivisions to the North and West. It is more consistant with the neighborhood. It allows for a greater concentration of Green Space along Castle Rock Lake and the inlet. Michael Poe- after changing and moving is it compliant with the zoning? Chris Renner- substantially the same. Have 100’ of width as it was previously. Michael Poe-likes fewer lots on the water and inlet. Dave Specht-asked for questions and comments. Michael Poe – lower density on the flowage is a positive thing. Having fewer is better. Likes the idea and opportunity to do this. Roger Bean asked if Larry Koopman had a chance to look at this plan. William Bruce reported that Larry Koopman had given him no comment on this. This is the 1st vote for General Development Plan and Specific Implementation Plan for the 3rd Addition of Copper Point. This is the first time up. We haven’t seen the landscape plan. Dave Specht- not into development yet? Chris Renner- Into the General Plan. Dave Specht- this is not the final of what will be? Chris Renner- not yet. If minor change a public hearing is not required. If a major change public hearing is required. Last year Copper Point was approved for the entire development. William Bruce- have to decide if a major change or minor change. Brad Pavloski- Is this a major or minor change with Sec. 17 of the Zoning Ordinance part (a). Dave Specht- clearify – lots in this sector not major. Now addition of lots over here. Brad Pavloski -Just relocating one side of road to other. # south of G to # north of G and converting lots 79 and 80 to outlots.. Discuss secondary structure. Change to outlots for guest house. Dave Specht- then they wouldn’t be outlots. Chris Renner- can’t have a primary structure, house, but could have small play set, guest house. Michael Poe – discussed guest house- one house per parcel. Dave Specht- aren’t out lots for public use? Chris Renner- discussed lot sizing. Discussed Schmidt house and Thompson pulling plug on sale. Brad Pavloski- problem that property not contiguous. Chris Renner – different designation so not sold alone. Dave Specht- out lots and green space – homeowners Associations responsibility. Chris Renner- there are a number of reasons designated differently. William Bruce- you could ask for a variance but doubtful you have a hardship. Chris Renner discussed building a garage. Michael Poe- but not with washrooms. Roger Bean- Pole shed? Dave Specht – would not meet your own covenants. Brad Pavloski- why would you ruin others value? Have to look real good. Chris Renner- Designate the difference. Pat Pavloski- can issue a 20 x 30 garage? William Bruce- yes when platted as a lot. Brad Pavloski- Secondary structures? Dave Specht- don’t build second story with living space. Jim Collis- will be cross from home or garage? Roger Bean- opening opportunities, still guidelines- what can be used for. Dave Specht –typically green space. Roger Bean- do we have a definitions of outlot? Dave Specht- typically green space. Jim Collis- could Bill issue a building permit? Yes. Brad Pavloski- make sure does not look like s---. Michael Poe- with care a secondary building could add green space. Effect increases green throughout, entire lot not used as green. With original density- green space needed. Dave Specht- currently lots? Chris Renner- want out lots attached to lots, used units at Castaway. Increases by 2. Enough reached maximum 242 with lots as outlots. 2 over if not approved as outlots. As laid out here, yes if left buildable. Before change 242. after 244 +2. Dave Specht- if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Not lots- buildable- over density. Roger Bean- Add 2 lots- major change. Michael Poe- density change. Roger Bean- what is the density? Chris Renner- 3.7 lots per acre. William Bruce- changes subject- major- density. Brad Pavloski discussed lot 79 and 80, outlots, no building on them. 242 lots density not changed. Designate as green space. Pat Pavloski- Castaway- added lot, stretched farther east. Cul du sac. Michael Poe –not major change off the water, stay within 100’ width. Increase green space. Open space/ green space. Green space decreases because with open water. Over all open space increases 1 ½ acres. 118 acres to 119.27 acres over all. Roger Bean- summary of changes except D. D is out completely, designated green space. Roger- % now? 16% Dave Specht- cover all issues? William Curran- haven’t seen previously so have no opinion. Brad Pavloski -20 ft side set backs asking 15’. Density is the same. Lots 14 and 15 combine to one lot. Michael Poe – Pattern didn’t change. Dave Specht- you want 15’ side set backs? Pat Pavloski- Always a problem with garages. Roger Bean- Minor change. Motion made by Roger Bean- changes reviewed considered minor changes. Second by Michael Poe. Motion carried. Fence Ordinance- William Curran- discuss objective or subjective. Dave Specht- Subjective- Zoning Administrator decides if within permitted uses. Goes to Conditional Use zoning Board of Appeals. Michael Poe- more inclined if needs to go to separate ordinance. William Curran- why not into 2. in zoning ordinance? Roger Bean – add as 2 or 3 paragraphs and see how it goes? Michael Poe- like specific- split fences, snow fences etc. William Curran- There is an advantage to walk thru examples. If want the zoning ordinance to be a book, be more specific. If more stream lined- more judgment calls. Dave Specht- still subjective. William Bruce- for the zoning administrator- if clear grant the permit, if gray appeal. Having to get the permit will handle more than 50 % of the problems. Roger Bean- option for the people- permission or forgiveness. Forgiveness gets the ticket. If permission- height, color etc. If not clearly o.k. get Conditional Use. William Curran- example- wall fence- go to Bill for a permit, decision on text, If doubt, Conditional Use- appeal- law suit-let’s hear the argument. Michael Poe Power Company, orange fence- can say no. View blocking, not on water front. William Curran- Show benefit to public. Potential, want to be bully. All have a chance. Page 44 9.01 (5) in favor of more clarity. Readable and understandable Roger Bean- 1st step is understand the details. Make details manageable. Add 3 or 4 paragraphs, incorporate into ordinance and see how it goes. If it doesn’t work go back and change it. Michael Poe – 9.01 (2) – If recommended to Town Board to change in zoning fence amendment goes to Public Hearing? Discuss procedure- zoning Board of Appeals, final or appeal to Town Board? Roger Bean- We are governed by State- Zoning Board of Appeals is final. There will be a violation if no permit. Dave Specht- most won’t know they need a permit. Bothers him about the process. Are we sending someone around to take pictures? Most build a little fence. William Curran- More people want privacy, will have more fences. Will this be running against covenants? William Curran- other areas do not have controls. Michael Poe- Need to look at what is impacted by fences and where they obstruct view of lake. William Curran -Look at case by case. Jim Collis- Look at 2.11 1, 2, 3 what we need- believes covers everything. Roger Bean – Gives guidance. Process- stand alone- same- height question, interpretation, good, bad,- zoning ads power. Discuss fence at High Ridge- depends on what side you live on. Planning Commission- interject or not? Elevated game- protect interests of property owners. Extra work- not that many issues. East side o.k. West side not –Good/ Bad. Ask Brad Pavloski about restrictions for privacy fence. Brad Pavloski – goes before architectural committee, case by case, more control.. Motion made by Roger Bean to conduct Public Hearing for proposed change to Zoning Ordinance. Second Jim Collis. Motion carried. Michael Poe – typo Zoning misspelled need to be corrected. William Bruce- class two notice. Needs 45 days. MVP District- go to Public Hearing the same time? Jim Collis made a Motion to have Public Hearing for MVP District. Second Roger Bean . Michael Poe – Changes have been made to MVP District since last meeting. Includes 3.05 Commercial District.. Two things not in here. Administration and penalty.7.05 already penalty. List of leasees every six months should be under administration. With changes go to public hearing, shared landlord/ leasessor William Bruce- whenever we don’t come to an agreement on we can deal with after public hearing. Motion carried. Next meeting Dec. 10, 2009 7 p.m. Public Hearing and meeting. Planning Commission 6 p.m. Public Hearing 7 p.m. plus second Public Hearing. Motion to adjourn was made by Jim Collis. Second Michael Poe. Motion carried. Respectfully Submitted, Marion L. Uphoff Assistant Clerk/ Treasurer